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TR AA vs VANU AA

 
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Krul



Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 3655

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:13 am    Post subject: TR AA vs VANU AA Reply with quote

Well I got a chance last night to try out the Vanu AA. Very interesting and quite different from the TR AA.
With the TR AA if you can lockdown and get a fairly motionless aircraft thats in close or mid range, you will land near 100% of your shots. This = death for a mosquito and near death for all other aircraft. If they dont get out of sight by the time I reload they are toast. With TR AA you also can fire and forget... the only problem is that to have an effective rate of fire you have to lockdown, which means at best its going to take you 2-3 seconds to start firing after you aquire a target because you have to stop moving and lockdown before you can start firing. This also hurts you when your done firing because you cant pop back behind that tree or hilltop, your stuck in plain view for an additional 2-3 seconds until you can unlock and start moving again.

With the VANU AA you get 8 missiles that fire at a good rate of fire, but you have to keep your target locked (in your recticule) until the missles get to or very near it (have not figured out the point where missle is locked and I can quit tracking the enemy plane). The reload rate is slow as molasses so you constantly need to spam the reload button so you dont end up with 2 missiles ready to fire (you need all eight). I found this gun to be very effective against slow flying planes that are at max ceiling, keeping them targeted was not a problem and you did not have to 'lead' them for the AA to hit. In a TR AA the planes at max ceiling were very difficult to target if they flew in figure 8's, I could never seem to lead them enought to get hits. Not a problem with a homing missile. The negative part of the VANU AA is that if a pilot see's radar lock and ducks behind cover or a tree before the missiles travel to them then they get away scott free, where as TR AA would be exploding in their tail pipe before they knew they were targeted.

Good and bad to both systems:
TR:
- Very effective against Medium and short range aircraft
- Surprise factor (no radar lock warnings)
- Easier to get a full salvo of rounds to the target
- Quick reload times

- Lock down = death
- W/O locking down your rate of fire is pitiful and you will annoy, not kill
- Extremely difficult to hit moving targets at extreme range

VANU:
- Very effective against any AC you can keep targeted, even at extreme range
- You can fly! Jump up on places that a TR AA can only dream of going to
- While not fire and forget, if your taking fire you can immediately move into cover... no 2-3 second delay
- Better field of view because you only have 1 gun obstructing your view

- Required to keep enemy planes targeted for missiles to hit, if you have a limited view of the sky forget about getting kills
- Super duper slow reload times



Neigher AA system blew the other one away. VANU AA seemed more efective against infantry than the TR, but I only had limited opportunity to try that out. IMO VANU AA = more surviveable with slightly less kills in the same time period. TR AA and its "surprise" factor is more effective in most AA situations, however once you get that first salvo off the enemy simply follows the tracers to your locked down butt and toasts you before your able to pick up and move into cover.

While I missed some kills, I really enjoyed not having to reload my AA MAX every 2 minutes from the heart of our base, 2 minutes from the fight, because I died so often.

In summary: The survivability of the VANU outweighs the benefits of the TR AA 'surprise' factor. So VANU AA wins by a hair over TR AA.

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Gurukk



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 1821

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was using Vanu AA, After I aquired the lock and shot, I could move away and they'd still track the target.

Or am I mental?

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Qef



Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 3720
Character Skills: Nope, still useless.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They would still track, the key is the recticle is red when you fire.

Also, if the aircraft comes after your max, like the tend to do on a tower defense, then the VS max can fly while firing, putting it back on the aircraft pilot to try to anticipate manuevers.

The ability to fly allows for a lot of surprise factor in hunting aircraft, since the average reaver pilot is focused on ground targets.

And yes, VS AA is more effective on infantry, and has limited success against some opponent maxes, (i.e. Pounder unless in a corridor, Scattermax at range, Burster, and to a smaller degree the Sparrowhawk.)

Against a good Double Cycler or a Falcon operator, the Starfire will lose all things equal.

Overall, VS maxes when taken on the Unimax cert offer the absolute maximum utility, which is why you see more VS maxes then NC or TR.

For me it's a close toss up between NC and VS maxes, with VS having hang time vs the NC shield to consider. VS also has range in most cases.
NC does more damage in exchange for slower fire rates and smaller magizines. Balance is good for VS and NS, TR will always lag in last until they come up with something better than a limited swivel lockdown.

The problem is, if done away with, TR would be overpowering due to rate of fire, TR being the ordnance delivery Empire. So at this point, there is no simple fix for TR, so probably after all this time, things will continue status quo.

Watch out for an increase in Pounders in tower defense after the next patch for AV, People are gonna think the pounder is back to it's old glory of grenade spammer again for a bit.


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K'Dahbruh
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Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 13551

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most experienced pilots see the missle lock, hit their afterburner, and never get hit by a Vanu AA missile. You get the dumb pilots, not the smart ones.

I don't like that. The smart, experienced pilots are the dangerous ones that you really want to take out.

And, the smart ones then wait until they've got their afterburner back, make a low sweep in, and rocket you to death before you can even unload one salvo on them, much less reload (the reload time does suck).

With a TR AA Max, I could find a good spot with something behind me (to protect my back), lock down, and then drop almost anything I saw but a loadstar before it could get away (you'd figure on the afterburner and just lead them a little more). Even the experienced pilots.

And, if anything but a mosquito came after you, you could generally take him out head to head, even if you died to his missles afterward.

With the Vanu AA Max, you only take out the dumb ones, and you have to be able to hide, because if they come after you head to head you won't get half of your 8 missles off before you're dead.

Vanu AA Maxes are great for the inexperienced player - you fire the missles in their general direction, and if they're dumb, you get them. If they're not, you can hide.

TR AA Maxes are much better for the experienced player. It takes more effort to find a good setup spot, and more experience aiming, but you can take out anyone, not just the dumb ones.

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Gurukk



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 1821

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

K'Dah don't get yourself into a paradox. A truly experienced pilot won't be phased by ANY AA. Only an equally experienced pilot.

In my opinion, every kill you get in a MAX AA situation is driver error. Whether or not that be inexperience, distraction (in the real world), bad day, ect.

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K'Dahbruh
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Joined: 11 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurukk wrote:
K'Dah don't get yourself into a paradox. A truly experienced pilot won't be phased by ANY AA. Only an equally experienced pilot.


Paradox? Equally experienced? You've lost me.

As for the rest of it - I don't agree. Back when I had decent connection speed and a decent driver, two of us (was it Krog'gug with me?) would jump into the AA buggy, drive to the middle of an air battle fight zone, and clear out the skies - experienced, inexperienced, good day, bad day, distracted, whatever. Those that didn't run, died.

Though, an experienced driver is just as important as an experienced gunner for that to work.

Edit: Oh, wait. You said Max AA, not any AA. I might agree with you then, though a single TR has a much better chance of catching an experienced pilot by surprize and getting him. And a team of TR Max AAs locked down has a good chance even if you're having a good day.

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Qef



Joined: 10 Apr 2003
Posts: 3720
Character Skills: Nope, still useless.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have hunted down a good few experienced pilots with my NC Max, positioning and timing are everything. It's that manueverabilty that gives me the advantage vs a TR max. I can keep tracking them as they burn, the TR can't, unless they move directly away and say withing the cone of fire. A lot of the same priciple applies to the VS max.

I see AA hit, I ab for the hills in a direction based upon causing the most adjustment on the maxes part.

If it is an AA buggy, then the above doesn't apply, those things are a Burster on steroids without the lockdown.


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Gurukk



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 1821

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AA Buggys = Instadeath

One took me down while I was piloting a Reaver, in no less than 4 seconds after hearing the first missle lock.

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Kursech



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1426
Character Skills: really really good ones

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a starfire, don't waste your missile lock warning until you are reasonably sure you can get off and hit with all 8 shots. I tear up the d00dz who reaver spam towers then bail and start noobhammering everyone inside switching out between starfire and quasar and making good use of the jumpjets. In a base I'm just never worried about planes killing my starfire, only AV (mostly phoenix when at a base).
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Krog Gug



Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 2954
Character Skills: *burp*

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

K'Dahbruh wrote:
Gurukk wrote:
K'Dah don't get yourself into a paradox. A truly experienced pilot won't be phased by ANY AA. Only an equally experienced pilot.


Paradox? Equally experienced? You've lost me.

As for the rest of it - I don't agree. Back when I had decent connection speed and a decent driver, two of us (was it Krog'gug with me?) would jump into the AA buggy, drive to the middle of an air battle fight zone, and clear out the skies - experienced, inexperienced, good day, bad day, distracted, whatever. Those that didn't run, died.

Though, an experienced driver is just as important as an experienced gunner for that to work.

Edit: Oh, wait. You said Max AA, not any AA. I might agree with you then, though a single TR has a much better chance of catching an experienced pilot by surprize and getting him. And a team of TR Max AAs locked down has a good chance even if you're having a good day.



I think they nerfed a ton of stuff since those days though. What once worked long ago doesn't seem to be that effective anymore.


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Xorv



Joined: 19 Aug 2002
Posts: 2028

PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok AA is one the things I do quite a lot in this game, and there's a good deal of false information in this thread about them. I'll try and explain a few things about AA Maxes, particularly the Starfire.

Location is everything! when you pull an AA MAX you need to observe the battlefield and make an assessment of the best locations to set yourself up, and continually reavalute this as the battle develops. Location can make the difference between killing just about every Air Cav out there, or being reaver spammed in the first 30 seconds.

Some thinss to consider ( a limited list):

Each AA MAXes weapon systems opperate differently, A good location for a Burster may be a bad one for a Starfire and vis-versa. The Burster is the best ambush suprise AA MAX, but its very vunlnerable to being ambushed itself, as such you should generally pick a bunkered or low profile position with this MAX. The Starfire is the only AA MAX that can completely turn around an ambush by a reaver, but it lacks suprise value and needs to maintain line of sight with its target fora relatively long time, greater the range the longer this is. In the absence of AV infantry a Starfire is best in open loaction on high ground.

With any of the AA MAXes you want a spot that you can see a sizable portion of the battlefied without being too overt in the enemies field of vision. Which often means to the rear of you own forces or on the sides of the battlefield.

With all the AA MAXes but especially the Burster it's good to have a solid sheer object to your rear like a wall, tower, cliff or large tree. This will help you avoid being ambushed.

If fighting at a base consider orbital strikes, Lib bombing, and Flails, all very common. You want to have somewhere secure from these very close by. Which is why I almost always fight nearby doors. Not in the door bloacking it for everyone else, but close enough to run to in a hurry.


Other tips: REPAIR! This goes for all units in Planetside I see too many of our new guys running around damaged, if you have the opportunity to go get repaired nearby do so, it might make the difference in your next fight.

The Starfire DOES require you to maintain lock on to hit, contary to a few posts here. The NC's AA MAX has a long lock on time and then the missles are fire and forget, not the Starfire. If your target recepticle is still red when using the starfire despite on your screen the target not being over the aircraft, it's probably in part an issue with packets and network lag or something. The reverse can also happen when a fast moving aricraft is targeted, but even though your cursor is over it on your screen you lose lock on. Which is why in those circumstances lead your target abit, say to the front of the aircraft to directly infront of its path of travel, all depending on its speed and distance from you.

You can kill all the pilots in a Starfire not just the "dumb ones", but be alert always. K'Dah is right the good ones will stalk you and definately kill you if you aren't paying attention. More danerous still are the hotdroppers that don't even try to to take you out with their aircraft, but just bail and pull a decimator. Tough fight, but you can win. I suggest running away if at all possible and leave them stranded to be picked off by your own Air Cav, or worse have to run 10 min back to the nearest airpad. It will be far more annoying for them and safer for you. Wink


The reload is slow or messed up on the Starfire as some have mentioned, so don't rely on the auto-reload, and reload your ammo manually.

Some maps have big trees that you can jump in, like Cyssor, make use of these. Being in a tree often gives you a good view of the battlefield, makes it harder for ground vehicles to hit you, makes you immune to flails, cloakers, and lib's bombs for the most part. Frankly it's a little cheap, but against Air Cav I don't feel so bad about it. Infantry AV can be a problem up in trees, but sometimes by moving further into the branches can mess up TRs AV lock on, your out of luck if it's NC.

How do you survive a reaver ambush? Being observant enough for it not happen in the first palce is the best, but sometimes there's too much going on to avoid them all. As soon as you realise your under attack, jump! You should have that jump jet button ready to go at all times when outside. You hit the jump jets and turn in the air until you see the reaver and let rip with your own missiles. just hold down the jump jets until they run out. If the pilots bails on you, you need to make an instant fight or flight decision. If flight, hit Q once, run and zig zag back to the nearest freindlies. If it's fight, you want to be close if they are using ESAV, far away if it's decimators, since you can use your jump jets to avoid the decimator if there's enough distance. Sadly you won't know what they have most of the time until they fire it. Personal Shield is a great implant for beating hotdroppers in an Starfire (you don't need the stamina it uses), though I normally don't take it myself.


Don't be fireing at every enemy in sight, focus on aircraft, and then anything else you are capable of killing which is directly threatening you (infantry, deployables, light vehicles).


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