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SC Wikipage 2nd Deletion Nomination
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Grak'Shogum



Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 3933

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: SC Wikipage 2nd Deletion Nomination Reply with quote

The Shadowclan Wikipedia page is up for a second nomination, by what appears to be either a brand new user, or someone's sock puppet. The nomination doesn't fall into the deletion policy and the nominator appears to know little about what he's doing. I'm just alerting in case anyone else wants to spring into defense.

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Baggi



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
Posts: 10886

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weird. It's like someone out there doesn't like Shadowclan and is making a fool of themselves in order to try and damage us. Sometimes people are just weird.
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Rakgru



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only anti comment I agree with is that the language is overly laudatory in places. It'd be good to tone that down a bit, but other than that I don't see how this could result in deletion.

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Khasha'an



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bet that the deletion discussion gets deleted for lack of justifying its existence.

Wiki wrote:
Abuse of deletion process

The deletion processes all focus on whether an article meets the criteria for existence on Wikipedia; that is, they are to determine whether it is not original research, its central information is verifiable, and it is capable of achieving a neutral point of view with good editorship. XfD (deletion) processes are not a way to complain or remove material that is personally disliked, whose perspective is against ones beliefs, or which is not yet presented neutrally. Using XfD as a "protest strategy" in an editorial or NPOV debate is generally an abuse of process and the article will usually be speedy kept.

It should also be noted that packing the discussion with sockpuppets (multiple accounts) and meatpuppets (advertising or soliciting of desired views) does not reflect a genuine consensus, and usually doesn't raise much in the way of novel policy considerations. A deletion debate is not a popular vote, but a way of obtaining editors' views as to whether an article meets policy guidelines or not, so these kind of activities don't achieve much. Often, where sock-puppetry is suspected, only editors with a significant history of contributions to Wikipedia will be counted in the rough consensus.



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Akharg



Joined: 21 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, we survived the last deletion thing?

What arguement did you use to get them to keep it?

You were looking for items about SC in media last i read. Did you guys find some? Or did something else let us get kept there?

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Nuurg



Joined: 24 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess by looking at the page is, that some other random clan dislikes it that SC is old and established enough to have a wiki-page, and thiers isn't.

This deletion nomination should fall through faster than the other, it's the same old argument by someone who knows even less. We've won this argument on wether we are NN or not before, we should do it again.

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Gru'Thok



Joined: 23 Aug 2002
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

take a look at his total contributions. Has so far editted articles on the Mets, Mike Piazza, and Shadowclan.

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Hugzug



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm clueless to how the site works so I don't know if just anyone can edit any page.

If they can that's pretty lame in my most usless humble opinion ( Laughing )and does anyone have our original version copied in case some random asshat edits it?


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Snabba



Joined: 20 Aug 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Weak Keep. The article is a little over-laudatory... I doubt the word 'revolutionized' is appropriate, and it doesn't really explain what Shadowclan really is all that well--but it is certain notable, per the sources, and shazbot. Do not suggest, however, pointedly, a speedy keep.-Kmaguir1 05:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


Developed? Founded? Pioneered?

Dunno about the rest.

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Baggi



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hugzug wrote:
I'm clueless to how the site works so I don't know if just anyone can edit any page.

If they can that's pretty lame in my most usless humble opinion ( Laughing )and does anyone have our original version copied in case some random asshat edits it?


Wikipedia keeps it and you can always revert back to a previous text. Anyone can edit it though at anytime unless Wikipedia specifically locks the page, which they don't normally do unless it is an extremely controversial topic and even then they don't necessarily lock it.

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Rakgru



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meridian 59, which predates UO by 2 years, had guilds that played as undead as well as vampire guilds. The Vampire guild definitely roleplayed and definitely played the "evil other" versus the the white hatted folks (they were one of the reasons the developers added red/blue flagging to that game and thus inventing reputation flagging). It even had an evil 'droid guild for a short while (names in binary, 010111).

So, do I think we revolutionized guild roleplay? No, but we did have a significant impact on the devlopment of roleplay in ORPGs particularly with our emphasis on appropriate language at all times as well as equipment.


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Khasha'an



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. They roleplayed the "evil other", but they actively attempt to be recieved like NPC's? Razz

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Rakgru



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil characters are evil characters as far as other players are concerned. For many it was even simpler, "red = dead" being a common viewpoint.

The vampires went red in order to be freely attackable by anyone else (sound familiar?). The only place you were safe was inside one of a handful of Inns. The first stage of joining the guild included a ceremony to set the reputation flag to red. I was actually a member until they disbanded.

I'd describe SC as a significant development in a continuum of online roleplay ideas, perhaps most importantly for surviving and thriving where so many other attempts eventually wither away. Given our propensity ofr trying games and leaving them, we also have a history of withered branches. There has to be something the branches that do survive have in common: including games that have the stability and mechanics to maintain long term interest.


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K'Dahbruh
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Joined: 11 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rakgru wrote:
Evil characters are evil characters as far as other players are concerned.


Nope. For many in UO-Cats we were part of the game. We were there as entertainment and to be killed. Some went so far as to get indignant if we killed them instead. That's almost the definition of NPCs. That's a far cry from other players that can attack you and be attacked.

Rakgru wrote:
Given our propensity ofr trying games and leaving them, we also have a history of withered branches.


We've gone into many of those branches knowing ahead of time that they wouldn't be long term. We bow to the desires of our membership to play new games together, even if they don't fit the clan well. If we were more concerned with making each of our branches a long term commitment, we wouldn't enter games as Shadowclan that didn't fit us as well.

This is part of the reason I've been pushing for 'unofficial' branches that don't use the Shadowclan name - to prevent this misunderstanding. There are games we go into that we know ahead of time it's unlikely we'll stay long. And yet when that branch fades away, someone always looks at it as a failure.

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Rakgru



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't say it was a bad thing that some branches wither. I tried to point out that the successful branches had some things in common with one another. We can learn something from those events. Sorry for being too opaque.

K'dah, if UO were the first online RPG and if SC were the first group to make itself available as targets, I'd agree that we were revolutionary in that regard. It wasn't and we weren't, and there are thousands of gamers who know that. The distinction between NPC-like and player-like is a legalistic distinction and one that makes no substantive difference to other groups who played as targets.

The differences to me, as someone who had previously played as a target in another game, were more in the roleplay devices overlayed on us as a group. Nonetheless, in M59 players treated the vampire guild differently than they treated PKs even though they were both flagged red. Why? Probably for the same reasons many/some Catskills players treated SC differently than PKs.

It's also difficult, when immersed in the SC world, to see how many other things went on in a game that had nothing to do with SC. I played on Catskills. Our guild moved to Cats about the same time as SC and in complete ignorance of SC, even though we both had been on Great Lakes. Like SC we had press attention and a following on the forums -- actually more press attention as we were part of a Wired magazine interview and provided game tours to several gaming magazine writers to experience M59 and UO from the established player's perspective.

SC is unique in many respects, it even has broken new ground in its time, but to call it revolutionary is, as the fellow said, overly laudatory.


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Gorg'da'guud



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rak, you're assuming that anyone who didn't play M59 knows or cares about M59. In the history of MMORPGs it's sometimes there as a historical footnote. As is the original Neverwinter Nights.

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Rakgru



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At its height M59 had 50 thousand or so subscribers (maybe more), Gorg. Almost all of whom went to UO. Almost all of whom took what they learnt in M59 &NWN with them to UO. M59 and NWN may be footnotes to you, but a significant amount of people who formed the initial player base for UO formed their ideas about how to play ORPGs in them and passed those ideas onto the newbies. Ultima owed a lot to both those games -- both its development and its communities. The seeds for much of what UO became were sown in those two games and the world of earlier MUDs.

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Gurukk



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rakgru wrote:
Almost all of whom took what they learnt in M59 &NWN with them to UO.


For anyone who is as young as I am, this taught me a lot. I never had any idea the NWN I know was a remake/borrowed name.

People paid by the hour? Jesus.


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Bragor
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they want historical documentation, there is documentation of Shadowclan from Stratics in Dec 98.

http://uo.stratics.com/shard/Catskills/ca_ShadowClan.shtml


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Grak'Shogum



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snabba wrote:
Quote:
Weak Keep. The article is a little over-laudatory... I doubt the word 'revolutionized' is appropriate, and it doesn't really explain what Shadowclan really is all that well--but it is certain notable, per the sources, and shazbot. Do not suggest, however, pointedly, a speedy keep.-Kmaguir1 05:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


Developed? Founded? Pioneered?

Dunno about the rest.


That's my friend, he's doing that to get on my nerves.


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Krul



Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rak,

Were your Vampire guildmates mistaken for actual game NPC's?

I remember several incidents I was involved in on both GL and Cats where people actually were asking me if I was an NPC or a GM. The combination of language, appropriate dress and actions caused many folks some serious confusion. They literally did not know if we were real players or part of the game itsself. and I know Im not alone in these encounters, especially.

I have met many Roleplayers and many Vampire guild members. However their looks, speech and actions never made me feel as If I were interacting with a NPC when it was an actual player.

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Rakgru



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Krul, I doubt they were confused in M59. The mobs were quite crude looking in that game for one thing. On top of that the brain power of early 'net users was far higher than the masses that moved onto the 'net in time for UO.

No one with a real clue would mistake an NPC orc with a player dressed as an orc. Though some UO people clearly had few clues. If you recall there was a player who put up a tower early on and then RP'd the orc owner of the tower. Confused a number of people; didn't confuse anyone who knew the difference between the models. These are the same people who give away their virtual money to ponzi scheme artists.

Grak's friend is correct, even if he if there is an element of chain pulling: for an encyclopedia entry you should take a neutral tone. Anyone truly think we've quite hit neutral yet with this text? That's the point of how wikis work, the text will get buffed and polished. Better if we do it.


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Khasha'an



Joined: 08 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's my friend, he's doing that to get on my nerves.


Bah. Tell him to stop then since he'll have several hundred angry orcs looking for him if he continues. He might believe you. Rolling Eyes


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Grak'Shogum



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khasha'an wrote:
Quote:
That's my friend, he's doing that to get on my nerves.


Bah. Tell him to stop then since he'll have several hundred angry orcs looking for him if he continues. He might believe you. Rolling Eyes


Ya I did. The concept of game devs rearranging parts of their game to accomadate your guild is lost on him. He doesn't know it yet, but we're kind of a big deal.


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Zag'Lug



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grak'Shogum wrote:
Snabba wrote:
Quote:
Weak Keep. The article is a little over-laudatory... I doubt the word 'revolutionized' is appropriate, and it doesn't really explain what Shadowclan really is all that well--but it is certain notable, per the sources, and shazbot. Do not suggest, however, pointedly, a speedy keep.-Kmaguir1 05:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


Developed? Founded? Pioneered?

Dunno about the rest.


That's my friend, he's doing that to get on my nerves.


Murray or Pippin? Razz


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