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Black Orc Discussion
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Ogg



Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 881

PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I need some help. I'm getting confused at all the options and features and need an overview of abilities / etc. I've checked the links and they don't quite get me what I am looking for. I've read the game manual and that seems to cover most of it, but it is still confusing me.

I'm going to pose my (lack of) understanding as a set of questions, which I hope people can confirm / deny / answer.

Abilities bought at career trainer.

Q: Are these roughly equivalent to base abilities in DAOC and trainable skills in WoW?

Q: Do they auto scale with level so you don't have to keep buying higher levels of the same skill?

Q: Is it correct that there is no downside to buying all skills (except trivial cash cost)?

Q: Some of the abilities are tied to a career path. What does this mean or what effect does it have?

Career points.

Q: Are these roughly equivalent to DAOC spec points, but with a simpler system based on one point per character level?

Q: I've seen the career calculator. Is it true that adding points gives to a path gives the character access to new abilities and new morale abilities based on that path?

Q: Does putting points into a career path also somehow enhance abilities (from the career trainer) that are tied to that path?

Q: Are there any benefits besides those listed above (new abilities, morale abilities, maybe ability scaling)?

Q: How much money does it cost to respec? (moderate or crazy DAOC money) Ie, how careful do I have to be?


Renown Points.

Q: Are these directly analogous to Realm Ranks from DAOC?

Q: You can buy stat enhancements in multiple levels and also tactics. How are these related and what are the restrictions?

Q: Can you guy things besides these two with the points?

Q: How much does it cost to respec?

Tactics

Q: I see a four hex display on the lower left. Do I drag my acquired tactics into those boxes to activate them?

Q: What are all the ways tactics can be acquired?

Q: What is the cost of respecing?

Morale Abilities.

Q: It appears morale abilities come levels 1-4 and building up morale during the fight allows the character to use the morale ability (with higher morale required to get higher level abilities). Is there a choice of what goes onto that morale bar, or is it constrained?

Q: I see getting Morale Abilities from career path. Are there other ways to get them?

Q: Is there a separate morale ability respec, or is that based on the choices that grant morale abilities? (Ie, if you respec career path you effectively respec morale abilities at the same time.)


Thanks for any help on these issues!!


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Mlar



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[
Abilities bought at career trainer.

Q: Are these roughly equivalent to base abilities in DAOC and trainable skills in WoW?
Yes

Q: Do they auto scale with level so you don't have to keep buying higher levels of the same skill?

They scale with level
Q: Is it correct that there is no downside to buying all skills (except trivial cash cost)?
Correct

Q: Some of the abilities are tied to a career path. What does this mean or what effect does it have?
It means that the effect of these is boosted by the corresponding career points

Career points.

Q: Are these roughly equivalent to DAOC spec points, but with a simpler system based on one point per character level?
Roughly yes, but you get 25 points between 11 -40 (not every level)

Q: I've seen the career calculator. Is it true that adding points gives to a path gives the character access to new abilities and new morale abilities based on that path?

Yes , but you have to invest a career point to get the ability in addition to the points to get to that level

Q: Does putting points into a career path also somehow enhance abilities (from the career trainer) that are tied to that path?

Yes

Q: Are there any benefits besides those listed above (new abilities, morale abilities, maybe ability scaling)?

No

Q: How much money does it cost to respec? (moderate or crazy DAOC money) Ie, how careful do I have to be?

Do not know


Renown Points.

Q: Are these directly analogous to Realm Ranks from DAOC?

Yes, but you get more of them & the abilities are correspondingly weaker

Q: You can buy stat enhancements in multiple levels and also tactics. How are these related and what are the restrictions?

Main restriction is that a minimum (20)must be invested in a level before items from the next can be bought

Q: Can you guy things besides these two with the points?

DO not think so

Q: How much does it cost to respec?

Tactics

Q: I see a four hex display on the lower left. Do I drag my acquired tactics into those boxes to activate them?

Yes. These can be swapped around when out of combat and you can have 5 preconfigured settings

Q: What are all the ways tactics can be acquired?

Career,mastery,renown,tome unlocks

Q: What is the cost of respecing?

Not required.You just swap around which ones you want to use

Morale Abilities.

Q: It appears morale abilities come levels 1-4 and building up morale during the fight allows the character to use the morale ability (with higher morale required to get higher level abilities). Is there a choice of what goes onto that morale bar, or is it constrained?

Constrained by the ability level. Apart from this you can swap around which ones you wish to use in each level

Q: I see getting Morale Abilities from career path. Are there other ways to get them?

Mastery

Q: Is there a separate morale ability respec, or is that based on the choices that grant morale abilities? (Ie, if you respec career path you effectively respec morale abilities at the same time.)

ONly based on which ones you have/get


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Azh
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ogg wrote:
Q: Does putting points into a career path also somehow enhance abilities (from the career trainer) that are tied to that path?


Yes. Both in-game and on the talent calculator linked in the first post, you can mouse over the abilities on the right side to see their current effects, add in a point to that mastery path, then mouse over the abilites again to see what effect adding that point would have.

The in-game info will be more accurate since it accounts for your current level.


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Ogg



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome replies! Thanks. I have a much better picture of these things, and I did go back and see how the career calculator actually shows you that effect.

BTW I also found on wardb the renown calculator, which Azh might want to add to the sticky:

http://www.wardb.com/renown.aspx?id=5

I guess the only question left was about the respec costs. Anybody know about career and renown respec costs?


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Ganthar



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to say using a two handed weapon is a massive drop to survivability. Before I could fight two even level monsters and basically stay at full health the entire fight.

Using a two handed weapon I was finishing fights with about half health when fighting two monsters. The DPS increase was noticable but I don't know that it was a big enough increase to offset the huge survivability loss.


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Grazzak



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of good posts about going 2-hander versus S/S. I'm not a number cruncher or math guy but the posts seem to indicate that most damage comes from your strength and not your weapon's dps. Posters seem to have determined that the greater your strength the better off you are to go with S/S and not a 2-hander. The extra DPS from a 2-hander is not significant...some folks have determined that you actually get more damage from a S/S than a 2-hander and a S/S player will have a lot more survivability.

I will be staying S/S by the sounds of this...again, I'm not a math guy....just reading the trends from these posts.

First post: http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130488

Second post (Swordmaster board post linked to in the first post): http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129893


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Buurzgoth



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ganthar wrote:
I have to say using a two handed weapon is a massive drop to survivability. Before I could fight two even level monsters and basically stay at full health the entire fight.

Using a two handed weapon I was finishing fights with about half health when fighting two monsters. The DPS increase was noticable but I don't know that it was a big enough increase to offset the huge survivability loss.


Why do you care about survivability as long as you are alive at end of the fight? Wink
At level 23 (using 2 hander) I can solo level 25 champions, so I'm pretty happy with my tanking ability, but getting into fight and clomping/blasting thing was always my thing rather then playing defensive role.

Anyway, both 2H and 1H have pros and cons, so just have to chose the one which fits your play style more.


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Ganthar



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buurzgoth wrote:
Ganthar wrote:
I have to say using a two handed weapon is a massive drop to survivability. Before I could fight two even level monsters and basically stay at full health the entire fight.

Using a two handed weapon I was finishing fights with about half health when fighting two monsters. The DPS increase was noticable but I don't know that it was a big enough increase to offset the huge survivability loss.


Why do you care about survivability as long as you are alive at end of the fight? Wink
At level 23 (using 2 hander) I can solo level 25 champions, so I'm pretty happy with my tanking ability, but getting into fight and clomping/blasting thing was always my thing rather then playing defensive role.

Anyway, both 2H and 1H have pros and cons, so just have to chose the one which fits your play style more.


I care about survivability because dead greenskins do no damage. There's a certain line where doing more damage isn't worth the loss of survivability. I don't know if I'm at that line yet as I haven't done enough RVR yet with a two handed weapon. However judging from PVE I'm losing a ton of survivability and while the damage increase is noticable I don't know that it's enough to offset how squishy I become when using a two hander.

edit: I'm not saying the trade off isn't good yet. I still need to test how it functions in group pvp more.


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Galb



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be staying with the Path Of Da Toughest. I've seen first hand how tough it is to take these tanks down both as one and against one. As one I was able to take down three Order guys the other night. I can only imagine how frustrating it was for them. When I played my Warrior Priest the other night I went up against one and dammit if it didn't take 4-5 of us to finally drop the guy. Keep in mind this is at lower levels before paths come into play. Now imagine this with a Black Orc specced full on Toughest.
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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an interesting post from the WAR Alliance forums:

This is a general treatise on tanking in realm vs realm combat. It will apply to all tanks equally, and I will give suggestions to meet some of the ideas presented within for each class.

The main point of this discussion is that the obvious role of certain tanks is not so obvious: In general, greatweapon equipped tanks (henceforth called 2 handers) are better at a Guardian role, while Shield bearing tanks (henceforth called SnB) are better at Linebreaking.

"What do you mean by Guardian and Linebreaking?"

Guardian:
Your job in any given conflict is to protect your side's healers and casters( Sorcs and Bright Wizards). Other Ranged DPS are less of your concern because they have lower target priority in the eyes of the enemy, have more survivability, and frankly, are less important to the overall battle outcome.


In most large fights, invariably, some Melee DPS classes (hencforth called MDPSers) and Tanks from the enemy will charge your lines and attempt to get at your healers and casters. Your job as a Guardian is to help prevent their death. 2handers are better at this- you still posess all of your usual tank damage mitigation for allies abilities (guard, crowd control, et al), and you do more damage. You are also not going to targeted. If the attacker does target you, then you've won, and they know that, so they will target fixate on the healer/caster. So you do not need the shield for your personal damage mitigation. And, thanks to your increased damage, you will do better in the "kill the attacker before they kill my healer/caster friend" race. That is what being a Guardian is about- winning that race.

Oddly enough, every tank's "Offensive/2hander" mastery tree has something that will help in this role.

Chosen-
Opressing Blows + Crippling Strikes will often mean a reduction of the attacker's damage, while you're laying the hurt on them.

Black Orc-
An Bestest! allows you to buff the ally you're defending, while Down Ya Go, preceded by your snare, will put the attacker on their bum as often as possible.

Sword Master-
Gryphon's Precision doesn't allow a stun lock, but it does allow for frequent interruptions in what the enemy is doing.

Iron Breaker-
These guys are rife with great Guardian abilities in their Vengance tree. Extra damage in Overprotective, another knock down in Cave-In, and a combined Knockback and snare with Powered Etchings.



Linebreaker-
Your job in this role is to throw yourself at the enemy's line, alongside a MDPSer. You want to protect that MDPSer as long as possible, so they can do their insane amounts of damage. That means throwing guard on that MDPSer and using your crowd control and other abilities to disrupt the enemy as much as possible, while the MDPSer wails on the enemy's casters and healers. It is similar to the Guardian, except you are within the enemy's line, and you will be targeted. So a shield helps greatly. Remember, it is not your job to do the damage- yes you can help, but you want to stay alive as long as possible to keep the real damage dealer alive as long as possible.

Now the tendency is to want to equip that 2 hander and do as much damage as possible alongside the MDPSer.

Resist that urge.

The survivability you gain using a shield is much greater than the damage you gain with a 2 hander. I'll admit, it's close, but in the longer run, keeping yourself alive longer to keep the MDPSer alive longer will result in more damage than a 2hander + MDPSer that get killed in a shorter amount of time. You can still do damage to the MDPSer's target, and in fact, you should be doing so. Throw every crazy tank debuff and DoT/knockdown you have on the target, but don't neglect the survival aspect.

In almost every case, the 3rd "Support" tree of the Tanks is better suited to this role.


"But this seems so backwards and contrary to normal thinking!"

Perhaps it is, but in my, albeit meager (only a month in Closed Beta to now), these roles have played out in such a manner time and time again. I'm not just talking from the perspective of playing a Tank (which I did alot of), but playing a healer (which I also did alot of). And it makes sense if you sit down and think about it.

"Who are you to tell me how to play?!"

I'm nobody, and I'm not telling you how to play. I'm suggesting you try and bend the paradigm a bit, and discover the new modus operandi for tanks in this game. Certainly SnB tanks can full fill the Guardian role, and 2handers can do the Linebreaker role, but their counterparts do those roles better.

"PvP in this game is too chaotic for this to apply!"

True, for now. But when the pool of players matures- level, equipment, and gameplay wise- you'll find more and more of these large fights were these roles become very apparent.


Good information that runs contrary to what most people probably think. The one thing that I'm wondering though, based on the S/S vs. 2-hander threads linked above, is whether it may be better to stack Str with both builds since it won't decrease your survivability that much with a S/S and Toughest or Boss Mastery path, but will help improve your dps even with S/S.


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Azh
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurbak wrote:
Here is an interesting post from the WAR Alliance forums


That is an interesting tactic. I've been trying to keep a two-handed orc as my defensive target so that they can get the buff from the Follow My Lead attack, but I'll admit that I haven't been very good at that in PvP.


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Ganthar



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that is an interesting idea. I never considered pairing up Black Orcs together one using two handed weapon and the other using a Sword and Board. Since we don't have any MDPS yet we could pair them up at the start of a fight with standing orders that where one goes they both go and state which one leads and which one follows while assisting them.

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Gorgok



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The board should always lead, especially when heading full on into incoming fire. Pop hold the line and run straight, both are very well protected from incoming ranged attacks. After that its another story i guess.

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Azh
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorgok wrote:
Pop hold the line and run straight


You have to stand still while using this ability.


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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azh wrote:
Gorgok wrote:
Pop hold the line and run straight


You have to stand still while using this ability.


And it completely drains all of your AP.

There is a mastery ability (Can't Hit Me) high up in Da Toughest line that gives you 50% chance to block and you can move (albeit at 60% speed) AND it does damage to your attacker each time you block, but it also drains AP.


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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azh wrote:
Gurbak wrote:
Here is an interesting post from the WAR Alliance forums


That is an interesting tactic. I've been trying to keep a two-handed orc as my defensive target so that they can get the buff from the Follow My Lead attack, but I'll admit that I haven't been very good at that in PvP.


With No Choppin Me tactic from Da Boss mastery you can keep yourself as defensive target and Follow My Lead will buff everyone within 30 ft. Da Boss line has some really nice skills for Linebreaking - I may give that a try.

In an all clan group we need some of the 2-hand orcs to also help linebreak, so it would be good for the S/S linebreakers to guard them in that situation. But in a mixed WB you really want to guard either marauders or witch elves if you are rushing the enemy lines so that they can take out the casters/healers before getting focused down.


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Gorgok



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange i guess its just the animation that screws up or something, i know i have used hold the line and moved and it appeared to work.

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Grubdug



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurbak wrote:
Here is an interesting post from the WAR Alliance forums:


stuff



That's pretty much what I have been doing lately. Especially in scenarios like Phonix Gate these tactics can work very well....provided you end up in a group that has at least some idea of what they are doing instead of getting farmed all the time by an enemy turtle or their bolt throwers.

*starts the whine again how all good DAOC players apparently mostly rolled Order this time instead of Destruction*


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Gork



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a great way to capture flags with a BO. A morale skill called All Shields gives 100% block for 10 secs. I charge it up scrappen at a flag then cast it and 2 seconds later I have the flag and enough time to start running away... I was picking up flags left and right a PG all night long.

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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gork wrote:
I found a great way to capture flags with a BO. A morale skill called All Shields gives 100% block for 10 secs. I charge it up scrappen at a flag then cast it and 2 seconds later I have the flag and enough time to start running away... I was picking up flags left and right a PG all night long.


That's a good idea but it requires you to get your morale up to level 2 (shouldn't be too hard in a group).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One dedicated Shaman who knows what your plan is and thats done. That is nice to know though... I'll have to roll my BO soon.

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Blarg



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurbak wrote:

"PvP in this game is too chaotic for this to apply!"

True, for now. But when the pool of players matures- level, equipment, and gameplay wise- you'll find more and more of these large fights were these roles become very apparent.[/i]


I find this to be true in a general sense. PvP, even high end, will be very very different several months down the road than it is now. This was true in DAoC as well. In the start of game, mass PvP is far more chaotic, unstable, and just generally crude, than it will eventually become. It takes time for large enough portions of the playerbase to be familiar with not only their own character's abilities, but those of others, and the general mechanics of the game. Eventually enough people will become experienced enough that the majority of PvP will be far far more organized, even to the point where the one or two random people who are relatively new and don't know what they're doing, will be pulled along and act more efficiently than most of the best players now, simply by following suit from those around them.

The lesson from this, is that whether or not it makes a difference now, it's worth it to learn to do things as efficiently and group-effectively as possible now, because it will be important later.

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Hamurak



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gurbak wrote:
Here is an interesting post from the WAR Alliance forums:


Good information that runs contrary to what most people probably think. The one thing that I'm wondering though, based on the S/S vs. 2-hander threads linked above, is whether it may be better to stack Str with both builds since it won't decrease your survivability that much with a S/S and Toughest or Boss Mastery path, but will help improve your dps even with S/S.


Wow, this was a very informative post. I feel lost during big PvP battles and generally have no idea what to do. I tend to just toss "Save da Runts" on a Shaman and try to snare as many people as i can, then stick my 5x armor crushing thing on any body that gets near the shaman and try to kill it.

Which classes are the MDPS?


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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Melee dps classes are Marauders and Witch Elves on Destruction side and White Lions and Witch Hunters on Order side. They are squishier classes due to their light armor, but they do more damage and have some nice utility skills (e.g., ranged snare/stun, etc.) to compensate. BO's can spec more for damage but they will still not approach the damage of an mdps class.

By the way, for a linebreaker BO another good choice for your Save the Runts is on a DoK that is fighting near you.


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Gurbak



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good tactic for linebreakers:

Attack ranged dps first and healers as second priority. If you attack healers first you don't have enough burst to kill them fast (unless people are really focusing) and the ranged dps will focus you down. If you attack the ranged dps you will keep them from doing dps as they usually start to scramble, and you will keep their healers busy just trying to heal them. So my main targets are usually Bright Wizards, Shadow Warriors and Engineers (BW's first because they are so dangerous). Melee dps should be focusing on the healers.

Ideally, I like to try to switch targets quite a bit when I get into the enemy ranks to attempt to get them all running around. If they are running they aren't focus firing down your own ranged dps and healers. This gives melee dps (WE's and Marauders) a chance to get in there and burst the squishies down one at a time. BO's have some great tools to cause general havoc behind the enemy lines - snares, ae knockback, taunt to break spellcasting, debuff shout, etc.

In order to be an effective linebreaker you must have decent healing support. Usually some HoTs are all you need if you are shield spec. This is particularly true if you are using Save the Runts on a mdps or DoK that is getting targeted. This is my biggest complaint in PUG groups in scenarios, where you are lucky to get even one HoT thrown on you while you are rampaging around behind enemy lines. With my Mork spec shaman I will try to throw up to 4 HoTs on the linebreaking tanks (regular HoT, small heal plus HoT, DoT on the enemy which has HoT component on defensive target, and the Mork spec HoT plus Toughness buff). With all those on a shield-using and Toughest or Boss spec BO they are really tough to take down.


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