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Zombie clearing for next game.
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Baggi



Joined: 31 Jul 2002
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Zombie clearing for next game. Reply with quote

If you look at the external map we have you'll see we could have easily kept the entire South East clear of zombies.

Next game we should try and do that.

Depending on how the game is laid out, we can keep a swathe of land clear of zombies. On this map, it would have been the South East.

All we would have needed were two people every day to go on a zombie clearing trip.

Straight south from town, from 0/-1 through 0/-4 would have kept zombies from coming East. One south of town and then East from 0/-1 through 6/-1 would have kept zombies from coming south.

That's how zombies spread in this game. They don't randomly populate a map, they spread outwards from wherever they already are.

So you can keep them away from areas (Or likewise, keep them in an area) if you clear them out every day.

We should try this our next game.


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Ganthar



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be worth looking into. We need to decide if it's worth the daily AP investment or not.

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Azh
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Zombie clearing for next game. Reply with quote

Baggi wrote:
If you look at the external map we have you'll see we could have easily kept the entire South East clear of zombies.


And how is that helpful?


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Baggi



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Zombie clearing for next game. Reply with quote

Azh wrote:
Baggi wrote:
If you look at the external map we have you'll see we could have easily kept the entire South East clear of zombies.


And how is that helpful?


We've got 12+ blocks down there that are not depleted.

With zero zombies, we could go down there individually and auto search all night, bringing back lot's of junk to the town.


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Hin



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

next game? we need to do it now Smile
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Azh
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Zombie clearing for next game. Reply with quote

Baggi wrote:
We've got 12+ blocks down there that are not depleted.


I count 9 squares. But anyway, those could easily be depleted in one day. I don't get the point of trying to keep one section clear of zombies throughout the whole game. Once the zones are depleted, they are useless.


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watarg



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to remember, in odd park, they had an incredibly rare placement where all their buildings were in the north/north east/east. They had west, sw, south, se completely clear of buildings for spawning. With our setup, we have zombies spawning in every zone every day. We would be spending our whole time trying to clear it out.

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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wat, this is why I mentioned a specific area, the south east.

There aren't any buildings down there. We wouldn't have any zombies spawning down there and could keep approximately 25 zones clear by only having to keep clear less than half that number.


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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Specifically, if we keep 9 spots clear of zombies, it would ultimately keep 27 spots clear of zombies.

But of course, those 9 spots wouldn't all get zombies every day, probably only half of those. So keeping around 5 spots clear every day would have the benefit of keeping zombies out of 27 spots.


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Azh
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zombie presence is secondary. Undepleted status is primary. What does it matter how many zones we have clear if they are all depleted? It generally only takes a handful of searches to deplete a zone. So any area we keep clear of zombies will be depleted within 2-3 days, making that clear space useless.

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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you notice that Girm got stuck today and had to be rescued?

You avoid all those problems when there are no zombies.

You'll also notice that zombies = uncleared zones. This is why if you look in the South East there are zones filled with zombies, and loot.

If there were no zombies there, I promise you, those spaces would be cleared and we'd have more items in our bank that we desperately need right now.


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Azh
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, exactly, they would be cleared and depleted! Once depleted, they are next to useless. So why would you want to keep clearing zombies from depleted zones?

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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So that if and when the search tower hits it again, they can be depleted again.

You really didn't know the answer to that question?


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Hin



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be fair, grim got stuck because the program bugged out and misled him.
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watarg



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what Baggi is saying, but I think it needs to be weighed based on the map. If we had started clearing the se for a zombie zoo, we would have 2-3 dedicated people using plumbinb everyday to keep the corner open to scavenge (which we do already). At this point, there's only a 1/8 chance of search tower hitting that zone, so the ap used the maintain the zombie zoo is a bit of a waste.

However, Let's say we had a good chunk of the map clear and we could zoo off the entire south. That's 4 zones and a 1/2 chance of search tower replenishing it. 2 people keeping the whole zone clear means everyone else can go out scavenging without using water guns and have more pack space.

This obviously gets even better if we could zoo off 6 zones.

So I think we just have to look at what the map gives us when we start a town. It's not worth trying to zoo off 1-2 zones (of Cool. We need a fairly good section clear of sites (4 continuous zones) and we can get a good cheap zoo. Once you get a spread of sites, then you end up need more and more people to keep the zoo up... wasting valuable ap.


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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with your analysis, Watarg.

Quote:

If we had started clearing the se for a zombie zoo, we would have 2-3 dedicated people using plumbinb everyday to keep the corner open to scavenge (which we do already).


Zombies couldn't make it over there and therefore, would never need to be cleared. I'm starting to think no one understands what the hell i'm talking about.

It's obvious to me, but hard to explain without pictures I guess.

Zombies could not get into the South East area of the map (I'm not talking about the South East spawn zone, i'm talking about three spawn zones, the South, the South East and the East) without first zombies spreading out from the building in the East and the citizen building in the South West. Zombies do not spread randomly.

So the South East would never need to be cleared for a "zombie zoo" as they would never be there in the first place.

Further, i'm not talking about a zombie zoo. Unless 3/4 of the map is considered our zoo, but no, i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a zombie free zone, which is different than a zombie zoo.

In a zombie zoo, you want to herd all of your zombies into a specific area. We could never do that with our current map.

Instead, i'm talking about keeping the zombies out of a specific area, which i'm sure is possible on all maps, unless you get super unlucky in your building placement.

Quote:

At this point, there's only a 1/8 chance of search tower hitting that zone, so the ap used the maintain the zombie zoo is a bit of a waste.


Again, i'm not talking about the South East zone. I'm talking about directly south of town and directly east of town and everything between, which means 3 zones, not 1.

Quote:

2 people keeping the whole zone clear means everyone else can go out scavenging without using water guns and have more pack space.


This is another misconception of how this works.

It's so easy that water guns aren't even needed. I don't even think Odd Park had water until day 14 or so, but they were able to do something similar to this.

I wish I could draw a map to explain what i'm talking about. It's really very simple. You'd only have to clear a couple of spots every day of a couple of zombies, nothing major.

And for that little amount of work, we would end up keeping 27 spots completely free of zombies.

We are talking less than 12 AP every day for only 2 people to keep 27 spots completely free of zombies.

I don't see why that's not smart.


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Hin



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think you mean this ?




in this picture only the yellow squares would need to be cleared routinely, while the green squares would never have zombies because in order to get there, they would have to fill up the yellow squares first before they flow in there.

so if town is the top-right yellow square, one person could travel south, killing all zeds in the yellow zones, and one travels west killing all zeds, thus preventing the green squares from ever having any.

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watarg



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I am saying based on Hin's illustration is that it's not worth the ap usage clearing out the yellow area if the search tower rarely hits the green area. If the green area were bigger, incorporating 3-4 directions, the benefit starts to ramp up.

Taking Hin's diagram as an example, the yellow and green areas incorporate:
- 7 squares SW
- 8 west
- 8 south

Let's say 1 person takes 10ap to clear straight west, and another takes 10ap to clear straight south. That's 20ap every day to keep 7-8 squares clear, search tower may not hit those areas either.

Let's say strategy 2 is just to clear whichever direction the search tower hits. Obviously, you may need more people to do several runs to clear out 7-8 squares because the counts keep going up whenever the search tower doesn't hit that direction. Let's say it takes twice the ap: 40ap to clear 7-8 squares.

The tradeoff is:
- 40ap everyday to clear 7-8 squares with 100% direction of refresh
- 20ap everyday to clear 7-8 squares with a 3/8 = 37.5% chance of refresh

The real balance comes when the area fenced off encorporates more squares or more directions. Things really go in the zombie zoo favor when the zombie zoo area is less than the zombie free area.


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Baggi



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think you're right Watarg that the chance is lower, something like 35% to 7 or 8 squares vs 100% for 7 or 8 squares.

There is another trade off though that you're not considering.

In the first example, with 100% clear, you get to search exactly the number of squares you clear.

However, in the second example, you get to clear additional squares that were never cleared because no one needed to clear them.

So, as we see happening right now, we have 12 zones that may have as much as 60+ items in them that we've never gotten.

Had those zones remained clear since the beginning, we'd have 60 more items, or more. Hard to tell exactly how many we might have.

The point is, this game is about getting stuff and we didn't get the stuff because the zone isn't clear and we couldn't get together expeditions to get out there and get the stuff.

To me, it's worth the higher AP expenditure to get more stuff.


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watarg



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say it's less about the "quantity" of stuff but the "quality." A lot of the items left out in the wilderness are junk: nessquick weedkiller, duct tape, rotted logs, scrap metal, broken knives, spice packs, etc. Bringing all that stuff in wouldn't help us.

On the other hand, undepleted areas offer us the "chance" to get useful things: nuts, pipes, cement, defense, jerry cans, etc. I think that goes back to what Azh was saying: "What does it matter how many zones we have clear if they are all depleted?"


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Baggi



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Azh question only makes sense in a world where we know what will happen.

So, in this game, hindsight is 20/20.

But right now, we're talking about next game. And next game, for all we know, the Search Tower will hit that zone every single time.

If we get a zone that can be roped off from the zombies, we should rope it off early and make our lives easier.


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watarg



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a game-time decision once we see the whole map by day 2. It may or may not make sense depending on zombie distribution and how the exploration sites are arranged.

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Baggi



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

watarg wrote:
This is a game-time decision once we see the whole map by day 2. It may or may not make sense depending on zombie distribution and how the exploration sites are arranged.


You two make absolutely zero sense.

You talk about wasting AP and you two go out today for less than an hour, waste a bunch of zombies for no reason, and come back to give nothing to the bank but what you left with.

Please don't argue with me anymore on whether what i'm saying is a good idea or not. Neither of you have any credibility after that silly stunt.


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Ganthar



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's tone down the hostility a bit guys. We're all friends here maybe not always the best of friends but in a general comradarie where we stick together.

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watarg



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggi wrote:
.
You talk about wasting AP and you two go out today for less than an hour, waste a bunch of zombies for no reason, and come back to give nothing to the bank but what you left with.

Please don't argue with me anymore on whether what i'm saying is a good idea or not. Neither of you have any credibility after that silly stunt.


Are you serious? There were 4 people autoscaving in depleted zones and we clear out 2 zones that are undepleted for people to scavenge in for 22 hours. The idiots are the scavengers sitting in depleted zones rather than auto-scavenging in undepleted zones we cleared.

Yes, it would have been much smarter if we sat in town building temporary defences, rather than giving us 22 hours in two zones to potentially find 11x2=22 items (some of which are defensive)

Weren't you the very same person saying we need more people scaving for defensive items? 2 undepleted zones cleared for auto-scav = more defensive items.


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